Innocently I thought "I wonder what W.
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Innocently I thought "I wonder what W. Shakespeare thought about religion, his plays are pretty Christian as one would expect, but there's other stuff in there..."
Big Mistake.
There is this whole crabby old debate, a squabble about if he's "secretly Catholic" from the time when asking this question would mostly be about Catholic vs. Protestant ... ring the boxing bell... FIGHT.
It's really instructive to read both sides of this old debate because they are both missing the point.
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Innocently I thought "I wonder what W. Shakespeare thought about religion, his plays are pretty Christian as one would expect, but there's other stuff in there..."
Big Mistake.
There is this whole crabby old debate, a squabble about if he's "secretly Catholic" from the time when asking this question would mostly be about Catholic vs. Protestant ... ring the boxing bell... FIGHT.
It's really instructive to read both sides of this old debate because they are both missing the point.
The debate is really about trying to claim an important cultural icon for "The Catholics" or "The Protestants" and it's just very silly looking from a modern standpoint.
Lots of tenuous readings of little scraps of text.
It's interesting how *not* relevant the argument feels from a modern standpoint. And what is that about? Maybe that is the more interesting question.
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The debate is really about trying to claim an important cultural icon for "The Catholics" or "The Protestants" and it's just very silly looking from a modern standpoint.
Lots of tenuous readings of little scraps of text.
It's interesting how *not* relevant the argument feels from a modern standpoint. And what is that about? Maybe that is the more interesting question.
@futurebird This is what happened in England back then to anyone who allowed it be found that they weren't religious in an approved way: https://hethersettherald.weebly.com/mathew-hamont.html
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The debate is really about trying to claim an important cultural icon for "The Catholics" or "The Protestants" and it's just very silly looking from a modern standpoint.
Lots of tenuous readings of little scraps of text.
It's interesting how *not* relevant the argument feels from a modern standpoint. And what is that about? Maybe that is the more interesting question.
@futurebird That’s interesting. And now I’m surprised Shakespeare’s religious identity isn’t one of the many things the two sides squabble about over here in Northern Ireland. Or maybe it is and I’m missing the debates?
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@futurebird This is what happened in England back then to anyone who allowed it be found that they weren't religious in an approved way: https://hethersettherald.weebly.com/mathew-hamont.html
Oh, there were real stakes, but they seem so alien from a modern perspective.
But also some of the plays are obviously written for the Queen and seem kind of sincere in their adulation. One needs patrons to run a theater. It ain't that deep.
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@futurebird That’s interesting. And now I’m surprised Shakespeare’s religious identity isn’t one of the many things the two sides squabble about over here in Northern Ireland. Or maybe it is and I’m missing the debates?
@astronomerritt @futurebird you can't be English and Catholic, this is unthinkable in NI...
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Innocently I thought "I wonder what W. Shakespeare thought about religion, his plays are pretty Christian as one would expect, but there's other stuff in there..."
Big Mistake.
There is this whole crabby old debate, a squabble about if he's "secretly Catholic" from the time when asking this question would mostly be about Catholic vs. Protestant ... ring the boxing bell... FIGHT.
It's really instructive to read both sides of this old debate because they are both missing the point.
@futurebird now I just want to categorise shakespeare plays into Catholic plays and protestant plays. Like twelfth night is catholic. Lear is Protestant. Timon of Athens: protestant. Most of the comedies are catholic. The tempest is Protestant.
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@astronomerritt @futurebird you can't be English and Catholic, this is unthinkable in NI...
I keep forgetting this. And really I should stop resisting learning about this whole conflict. But part of why I resist is because I know ENOUGH about UK history. I know too much about it. I want to save room in my little brain for something else.
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F myrmepropagandist shared this topic
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I keep forgetting this. And really I should stop resisting learning about this whole conflict. But part of why I resist is because I know ENOUGH about UK history. I know too much about it. I want to save room in my little brain for something else.
@futurebird i thought ants had the most real estate...?
@CCochard @astronomerritt -
@futurebird i thought ants had the most real estate...?
@CCochard @astronomerritt@jenesuispasgoth @CCochard @astronomerritt
It is impossible to know "too much" about ants.
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Oh, there were real stakes, but they seem so alien from a modern perspective.
But also some of the plays are obviously written for the Queen and seem kind of sincere in their adulation. One needs patrons to run a theater. It ain't that deep.
As a modern reader when I wonder "how Christian is this writer's work?" I'm interested in if they cared about the story of Jesus and if they put some of those themes in their work. Because some writers REALLY care and others not so much. It's interesting.
But the game of claiming historical figures for one team or another isn't as interesting to me.
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Innocently I thought "I wonder what W. Shakespeare thought about religion, his plays are pretty Christian as one would expect, but there's other stuff in there..."
Big Mistake.
There is this whole crabby old debate, a squabble about if he's "secretly Catholic" from the time when asking this question would mostly be about Catholic vs. Protestant ... ring the boxing bell... FIGHT.
It's really instructive to read both sides of this old debate because they are both missing the point.
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@futurebird
One result of the religious turmoil in Britain and Europe generally was that many of the more extreme religious zealots from all sides were encouraged to go west. How's that working out for you over there?Can we send them back?
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The debate is really about trying to claim an important cultural icon for "The Catholics" or "The Protestants" and it's just very silly looking from a modern standpoint.
Lots of tenuous readings of little scraps of text.
It's interesting how *not* relevant the argument feels from a modern standpoint. And what is that about? Maybe that is the more interesting question.
the religious whims of the ruling class are part of it, and that has a lot do with how much authority the Pope would have in governing England. Henry VIII couldn't have a divorce with rule of the Pope, so he created the Church of England with himself as its head. that's the Anglican church, just one of several different Protestant movements. during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, Catholics were treated horribly, and that's why there's a poem about the fifth of November.
there is a lot of this kind of power struggle in English ruling class history, probably none of which ever really improved anyone's life.
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Innocently I thought "I wonder what W. Shakespeare thought about religion, his plays are pretty Christian as one would expect, but there's other stuff in there..."
Big Mistake.
There is this whole crabby old debate, a squabble about if he's "secretly Catholic" from the time when asking this question would mostly be about Catholic vs. Protestant ... ring the boxing bell... FIGHT.
It's really instructive to read both sides of this old debate because they are both missing the point.
As someone who lives and raised children in a province that still has a constitutional requirement for both publicly funded ‘public/district’ and ‘Catholic’ schools, the legacy of these attitudes is a very live thing a half a millennium after the Protestant Reformation in Europe and the UK.
This separation of schools — originally Protostent vs Catholic — dates back before American Revolution, and its continued presence in our constitution can be viewed as a reaction to the American Revolution.
The Canadian Constitution actually continues to provide for a system of ‘separate’ Roman Catholic’ schools that must be publicly funded in Ontario.
This was to protect the rights of the Roman Catholic minority in Canada. It’s a direct result of the 1774 Quebec Act, which removed the Protestant faith from the oath of allegiance, protected the rights of Roman Catholics and permitted tithes among other things that the Thirteen Colonies opposed.
Which when coupled by the other constitutional requirement for both French and English schools where numbers warrant, means that in much of the province there are four publicly funded school boards providing JK to 12 education: English-Public, English-Catholic, French-Public, French-Catholic. Add to that French immersion options in the English schools, the result was that the kids on our block attended five different publicly funded schools.
Other provinces with the same constitutional requirement for publicly funded Catholic schools - Newfoundland and Quebec - have chosen to amend the constitution to remove the religion-based distinction in publicly funded schools and have replaced it with a clear provision for linguistic school boards.
Ontario, which is Canada’s most populous province, has had very strong political resistance to amending this provision of the constitution.
