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Violence is always the answer
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This post did not contain any content.Now let’s make it a little harder. You have three guards: one tells the truth, one lies, one answers randomly. The guards understand you, but only answer either “da” or “ja”. One means yes, one means no, but you don’t know which is which. You get to ask each guard one question.
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Now let’s make it a little harder. You have three guards: one tells the truth, one lies, one answers randomly. The guards understand you, but only answer either “da” or “ja”. One means yes, one means no, but you don’t know which is which. You get to ask each guard one question.Give them a paradox by encoding the other two's potential responses into the question (similarly to the two guard solution, but this time the random response is included). If they are able to answer, then you asked the random one, because the liar and truth teller have no idea what the random one would answer so can't answer only yes or no without potentially violating their truthiness rule. This isn't to solve the puzzle but to see what the other two would do in that situation. If I figured out the random one with the first question, I'd use the 2nd to ask the same thing of one of the others. Then, if it's still 2 doors, the two guard solution will work on the last one to figure it out. But if the first guard asked explodes or something when asked, I think that there wouldn't be enough questions left to find both the random guard (which I believe you have to do first) and the door. Though if you change the question to only ask about one other's answer instead of both, you'll be able to find both the random guard and the safe door. Though hopefully the whole setup isn't a lie and everyone present is a strategic liar that wants you dead. Imagine doing one of those riddles and when you step through the door you notice both doors lead into the same room whose walls now seem to be closing in and the last thing you hear is one of the guards asking another why riddles seem to get people to let their guard down anyways.
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Right, in which case the door they're in front of is the safe door. And if they tell the truth and say yes, they're still the person in front of the safe door. By asking it that way they make it so it doesn't matter if they're the liar or not. "Yes" means that person's door is safe and "No" means you want the other door, no matter who you ask.
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It is solvable. You ask one guard at random, "Which door would the other guard have said leads to certain doom if I had asked them?" And no matter which guard you ask, go through the door they answer with. If it was the truth teller guard, they'll tell you which door the liar would have said, and if it's the liar they'll lie about which door the truth teller would have said.
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My favorite take on this: That last question is ambiguous enough (in this specific scenario) that either answer would work. It's both true that the other guard can't tell her something happened (due to being dead), while the other guard would have said that something did happen if he had been able to. So it's a meaningless question but the wife doesn't know that since she doesn't know the guard is dead. Which just adds another layer to the joke lol.
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I wish our DM had real-life message to telepathically convey stuff to just one person. In my group there would be literal zero chance of the others not listening to me if I ever threw a “hmm why is that wire there”, because they would’ve heard the dm either tell me due to passive perception or had me throw a roll and then tell me. So they know it’s a trap no matter if I want to rp it. Every time I get frustrated and question it, there’s thistle guy who always has the reasoning and justifying at hand why they would know to do the right thing and to be fair they kind of make sense always, but there’s zero chance he’d come up with that just by my rp line alone without knowing for a fact it’s a trap. I think that’s the worst kind of meta gaming. They are fully blind to the meta gaming there and just do it by instinct. And when you try and question, they always have a defense ready, even if it’s so wildly specific and unlikely but you can’t really fault it because they’re not stupid, the justifications hold, it’s just that the only way they habitually generate them is because they know what I know despite they couldn’t in-game know. Like I’ve occasionally just left the thing unsaid in-game out of frustration and just reason to DM that there’s so much going on, my focus instantly switched to another thing and I forgot because I’m not very smart. So we all know there’s a trap but now nobody has told this to the others. What do they do? The one guy fucking always comes up with some shit like “hmmm be wary, they must’ve laid traps here, hey you with good investigation, please look around and see if there’s one in this specific place for some reason” and the rolls of course often succeed because they always choose to best one to solve that. But from rp perspective, we’ve walked this path for a while, and this thought only came up now, that it might be trapped? Just right now when you know, outside of the game, that there’s a trap? I call bullshit and it frustrates me so much, there’s very little chance of anything interesting ever happening in-game because we seldom miss anything or do the wrong things, because “somehow” we always happen to do the right things no matter who notices things in-game or rolls or whatever, no matter how much any of us attempt to rp it, somebody just meta games it without it being explicitly or admittedly meta gaming and gets all defensive when questioned and because they now know everything, can figure out an explanation the DM can do nothing but accept because it makes sense, now that they know to pull the right shit out their ass. Ugh. It’s not even a big deal, our group is fun and the adventuring isn’t bad, these things don’t happen often enough for it to really affect things, but god do I hate it. This ended up being a rant, I didn’t even know how much I get frustrated with it until I just now read this back. Jesus…Yeah, I agree that having a secret communication channel between the DM and players is good because it goes deeper than just meta gaming: there's also meta meta gaming. As in you hear a piece of information that your character would have no way of knowing and this piece of information makes the correct tactical option obvious. It might not have been as obvious before, but now that you know, you can't unknow it (at least not without an even more severe disruption to the game). So does that mean you can't pick that now obvious option to avoid meta gaming? What if your character probably would have chosen that option anyways? Same thing for trying to do something that would reveal that information to your character, would your character have done it without the information? Should you just pick a bad option now because any good option is meta gaming? I don't think there is a good solution once anyone knows about the information. Hell, even your barbarian's decision to not say anything could be considered meta gaming because you were doing it in response to how the other players were acting and justified it afterwards just like they are doing. *Avoiding the meta gaming option is still meta gaming*, it's just from a place of not being able to help but meta game. It's like playtesting magic decks against another one of your decks alone. Sure, you can see some things like how well the mana ramp works, how big of a threat you can get on the board relative to your opponents, but when it comes to interactions, you know exactly what spells you should counter or ignore, what might happen if you choose to block or let an attack through. There's no tactical surprise or bluffing, which can both play a big role in the game. When I DMed, I liked to have some rolls from the players ready ahead of time, because I found even "roll a spot/listen check" gave away too much information on its own. Pass or fail, it was a signal to start doing some active searching because there's something of interest in the vicinity. So instead I'd just use the early rolls and cross them off my list as the players made passive sensory checks and only mention anything if the roll was high enough. Then notes can be passed with the information to those who know it, plus extra nothing notes sent from time to time, maybe with a promised reward if they don't say it's a nothing note so the meta gaming that results just wastes time and discourages people just reacting to notes.
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I wish our DM had real-life message to telepathically convey stuff to just one person. In my group there would be literal zero chance of the others not listening to me if I ever threw a “hmm why is that wire there”, because they would’ve heard the dm either tell me due to passive perception or had me throw a roll and then tell me. So they know it’s a trap no matter if I want to rp it. Every time I get frustrated and question it, there’s thistle guy who always has the reasoning and justifying at hand why they would know to do the right thing and to be fair they kind of make sense always, but there’s zero chance he’d come up with that just by my rp line alone without knowing for a fact it’s a trap. I think that’s the worst kind of meta gaming. They are fully blind to the meta gaming there and just do it by instinct. And when you try and question, they always have a defense ready, even if it’s so wildly specific and unlikely but you can’t really fault it because they’re not stupid, the justifications hold, it’s just that the only way they habitually generate them is because they know what I know despite they couldn’t in-game know. Like I’ve occasionally just left the thing unsaid in-game out of frustration and just reason to DM that there’s so much going on, my focus instantly switched to another thing and I forgot because I’m not very smart. So we all know there’s a trap but now nobody has told this to the others. What do they do? The one guy fucking always comes up with some shit like “hmmm be wary, they must’ve laid traps here, hey you with good investigation, please look around and see if there’s one in this specific place for some reason” and the rolls of course often succeed because they always choose to best one to solve that. But from rp perspective, we’ve walked this path for a while, and this thought only came up now, that it might be trapped? Just right now when you know, outside of the game, that there’s a trap? I call bullshit and it frustrates me so much, there’s very little chance of anything interesting ever happening in-game because we seldom miss anything or do the wrong things, because “somehow” we always happen to do the right things no matter who notices things in-game or rolls or whatever, no matter how much any of us attempt to rp it, somebody just meta games it without it being explicitly or admittedly meta gaming and gets all defensive when questioned and because they now know everything, can figure out an explanation the DM can do nothing but accept because it makes sense, now that they know to pull the right shit out their ass. Ugh. It’s not even a big deal, our group is fun and the adventuring isn’t bad, these things don’t happen often enough for it to really affect things, but god do I hate it. This ended up being a rant, I didn’t even know how much I get frustrated with it until I just now read this back. Jesus…(Split it up into another comment since it's a different idea). Another thing that DMs can do is punish meta gaming with things that go against expectations. Like maybe some secret doors are actually the release mechanism for some damgerous monsters that act as security when someone sounds an intruder alert. Or the listen check is to see if you can hear the siren's song in the distance as you pass a nesting area. Maybe the pressure plate is connected to a power source and system to bring the facility the players just entered online, turning on lights and opening doors that are otherwise locked when it's in mothball mode because the wizards who built it assumed the secret entrance would provide enough security. So while it looks like a trap, it's just some home automation that would make everything easier. Then if they skip the "trap", gotta have a scene where they return with someone else who does step on it to leave them wondering if they made a mistake or if they did it the more interesting way. I need to find a group one of these days, it's been too long since I've played a tabletop RPG and I was a naive power gamer when I last did, so I'm curious about playing a game without min/maxing. Though the best game I've played was with a friend who wanted epic shit like in Devil May Cry. There were no real rules, there were rolls but pass or fail was more of a vibe check than anything specific because the more you described a cool action in detail, the more likely it was to succeed. It was pretty awesome and fun. For context, DMC features epic scenes like a man-sized entity fighting and beating a skyscraper-sized titan, blocking bullets with swords, and I can't remember if this is actually in one of the games but even if it isn't, it kinda shows the level they are on, but I think there's even at least one scene where a character uses bullets as stepping stones to get within sword range of someone firing down on him from high up.
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"What would the result be of combining the following terms with "and": the direction of the correct door, and the color of the sky?"Careful with that because "the wrong direction and blue" would still be a lie. So would "the correct direction and fluorescent yellow". And it has a bunch of assumptions about the sky and their perception and knowledge of it built in.
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Careful with that because "the wrong direction and blue" would still be a lie. So would "the correct direction and fluorescent yellow". And it has a bunch of assumptions about the sky and their perception and knowledge of it built in.
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The scenario usually says that "one only tells the truth" and "one only tells lies". at this point it becomes a question of whether a truth and lie in one sentence is considered impossibleYeah, it's impossible to say one way or the other because the setup is underdefined and leaves a lot of room for ambiguity or loopholes. On that note, don't beat yourself up or consider yourself stupid because of that. Even though it's questionable whether it would work or give them room to screw you, I think it was a good creative solution to the riddle that I've never seen before. If you came up with that on your own, I'd consider that a sign of good potential. Nurture and refine that, don't try to beat it down to avoid being wrong ever. (Haha I really hope you're not like 50 or that might come off as really condescending rather than encouraging). Like, thinking about it more, I think it can be resolved by changing the "and" to an "or", at least on the lying side. Though that would open up the truth side to be able to sneak in a lie while technically telling the truth. But there might be another adjustment that would close the loophole entirely and give a solution that doesn't require a reference to the other guard's answer.
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Alternate solution: How can they both explain it when one only tells lies?
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But they would have to keep adjusting since they both have to answer acco4ding to what the other one saysThe answer is stable because the liar will always say the bad door is safe and the truth teller will always say the safe door is safe, therefore the liar will always say that the truth teller will direct you to the danger door and the truth teller will tell you the same. I tried to add some self-reference to the question to make a paradoxical answer but can't see a wording that even causes something like "this statement is false", at least not one about which door to pick. Only ways I can think of start with the paradox right in the question. Like "If the other guard said, 'this statement is false', would you believe him?" Sucks someone downvoted just for asking questions to better understand this less than straightforward thing. I've always believed that if you think something is wrong, you should challenge it, because even if you are wrong, the resulting discussion can help you understand why your previous perspective was flawed, which might then cascade to other things you didn't realize you were also mistaken about.
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Yes, but they did establish that one of the guards is no longer living and that giving barbarians riddles is dangerous for everyone involved.
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That's funny! but if you want to know how to solve this problem every time, even when asking one single question, just ask this question: "If I ask the other guy which is the correct path, which path will he tell me?" No matter who you ask, both of them will point to the WRONG path, meaning the correct one is the one they DIDN'T point to. Here is the logic. For the sake of argument, let's assume the correct path is the right path. When you ask that question, if the person is the truthful one, he will be honest and say the left path. Because if you ask the liar what the right path is, he will say it is the left path (which is false). Now if you ask the liar what the other guy will say the correct path is, he will lie to you and say it is the left path (which is also false, the truthful one will tell you it is the right path and not the left).
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Now let’s make it a little harder. You have three guards: one tells the truth, one lies, one answers randomly. The guards understand you, but only answer either “da” or “ja”. One means yes, one means no, but you don’t know which is which. You get to ask each guard one question.It's still trivial, assuming the three guards guard three doors: just ask each guard: "Would the guard that always lies say this door is safe?" The random guard will give a random answer while the other two give the inverted answer. Even better if don't ask the random guard first, then you can repeat the question about the other doors to the same guard and only need two questions
